Navigating Leadership Transitions: Scott McGohan’s Journey | Episode 15
Come inside with Scott McGohan, former CEO of McGohan Brabender and author of the book Culture is an Inside Job. Scott shares insights from his personal journey with leadership transitions, the significance of individual culture in shaping organizational culture, and his transformation from a destructive hero to a growth-focused leader. Wendy, Karen and Scott highlight the power of humility, continuous learning, and the impact of truthful feedback on personal and professional development.
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Full Transcript
Wendy
Host 00:01 Welcome to Culture is an Inside Job the podcast on building an authentic, engaging and inspiring culture. Hi, I’m Wendy Roop and, along with my friends and co-hosts, Karen Preston and Scott McGohan, we believe that building a healthy work culture starts with leaders like you. If you’re ready to get real and dig deep into your own self-awareness, determine how you want to show up in the world and then take aligned action to transform your leadership and those around you, then this podcast is for you. Now let’s go inside.
Just to catch everyone up, in a nutshell, if you didn’t listen to our last two episodes we talked about we’ve been talking a lot about positive intelligence and the saboteurs. If you haven’t, you go to PositiveIntelligencecom. You can take a saboteur assessment and what it does is it feeds back your. What are your saboteurs? Or your inner critic or your gremlin, however you want to call that out. Really good assessment. And then, last time we were together, we talked about the sage powers, which are just basically those things that can help us to quiet our saboteurs, and the sage powers aren’t anything necessarily magical. They’re things that we all have within us and they are empathy, exploration, innovation, navigation and decisive action. And so if you’re interested in learning more about that. Listen to our last couple of episodes today.
01:36 We thought that Karen and I, while we were talking and preparing for our conversation too, we were like, oh yeah, I think we need Scott to be like our first guest on our show.
01:47 So, scott, I mentioned this to you earlier, but I’d just like to maybe jump in. So Scott has recently published a book called Cultures and Inside Job and he is doing a lot of speaking about it and it’s an amazing book and he also has a you know pretty big change in his I guess what do you want to call it like your career. You’re just, you know where you’re at now and moving forward. So Scott was a CEO of McGohan Brabender for many years and he’s now transitioning into a different role with them and just in his life in general. So I’m just going to pause and, scott, maybe tell us a little bit, give your update about where you are right now in your life and career and then how all this relates to what we’ve been talking about, tied to your book around levels of leadership and our saboteurs that get in the way. So I’ll just have you jump in and then we’ll just see where this goes.
Scott
Host 02:56 That’s a mouthful.
Wendy
Host 02:57 Yes, it is.
Scott
Host 02:59 Yeah, you know, let me go back to when we like started to plan like a transition timeline, might have been like, I’ll probably say, six or seven years ago. So who’s ready, who’s on the board, who needs coached, who needs to sit in the room with different people, just kind of walking through what his transition looked like from McGohan Brabender and I’ve been involved, like like you, wendy, at aileron and I’ve been in a lot of companies and I’ve seen a lot of transitions go really well and I’ve seen more and like badly leaders. You know, number one job. Number one job is to begin to think about what’s next for the organization and it’s normally replacing yourself and who’s ready for that.
03:56 And emotionally, strategically, it’s really important. Emotionally it’s even harder Because for a lot of us, and maybe even sadly more for me, our, our identity is in our careers. It’s where we get affirmed, it’s where we get maybe immediate affirmation versus long term affirmation and then to, and it’s where we get relevance. It’s where we get applause Right, Because sometimes people they applaud because they have to, not because they want to, but anyway, either way, where you have all you know you’re.
Wendy
Host 04:41 That’s where you put your value to.
Scott
Host 04:43 Yeah.
Wendy
Host 04:44 Your personal value has been tied up into that particular role and all that you were responsible for.
Scott
Host 04:52 And I was a massive alcoholic for I would probably say for the majority of my career. And on the end of my career, by the grace of God, I started to wake up a little bit. Self-awareness came, self-worth began to show up. So that journey on the transition was, was interesting.
05:17 And if I could give anybody advice on that is you’ve got to give yourself a lot of time to accept it. I mean, you can think you’re being a hero and you can think you’re doing a great thing for the company by saying you know, hey, I’m ready to leave and you know we’re going to build on this transition. But if you’re really not ready to do that, I just think that ends badly for a lot of people Yourself, your family, for everyone around you. So just spend a lot of time accepting and just the honest truth around what that looks like, you know, for you. You know, sadly, if I went back, I don’t know, 20 years ago and I wanted to step away, I wouldn’t have anything else to do, because that’s all I did and sadly it’s, it’s all I cared about.
06:03 Yeah, so to kind of walk through and accept the fact that I did my very best and sometimes it didn’t end very well, but I did a really good job. I feel proud of that, Kari and McGohan, Brabender, through the Affordable Care Act and you remember that, Wendy, and the retooling of the company and we had really low growth and how.
06:30 How are we going to make it Then? Evolving through COVID which was very challenging emotionally, spiritually, you know, for not only our leadership team but the entire working group, and then selling the organization to our employees through an ESOP was was probably one of the, you know, greatest days in, you know, in my career. And then finding the two leaders that are ready to go is a real blessing. And if you’re a leader and you have someone that’s ready to do that and you don’t let them do that, you know you don’t let them do that. And if you’re a leader and you have someone that’s ready to do that and you don’t let them like take that chair soon enough they might leave your company and go lead somewhere else. And then, when you’re ready, like you’ve got double the problem. Now you got to go find somebody else. And that gets super wonky.
07:27 And but you know, both Mike and I we felt like you know, he was going to stay a year, I was going to say a year and a half and we were going to transition, we were going to coach and mentor and all this stuff. And yeah, that probably happened for about maybe 90 days. But you know, like after 90 days. They just like, they just took the reins. They didn’t leave us behind because, not because they didn’t care, they, they two things. Number one, mike and I got out of the way. So, out of respect for them and out of respect for my dad, who we watched step away, who gave us control and authority and trust and affirmation and all of that, they took off, ronnie, and they’re doing a. They’re doing a great job.
Wendy
Host 08:13 So your point. You said it earlier, they were ready.
Scott
Host 08:16 They were ready.
Wendy
Host 08:17 And you paid attention to that and so, and you allowed to, you know you had that trust level and they had the trust in you, and so that’s probably why it took off so fast, right, yeah.
Scott
Host 08:33 And I think for some people would say well, how do you know they’re ready, which is a really good question, maybe you know. Just briefly, for somebody that’s exploring this would be you know, my dad used to give us some decisions to make and then you know, every once in a while. One time I asked them like these are very, very tiny decisions and like I want a big one and he goes. Actually, I’m giving you some little ones and I go. Why? And he goes? Because I don’t care what decision you make, I go what he goes. I don’t care what decision you make, I’m more curious in regards to how you make them and how you treat people inside of those decisions, and I was like whoa, okay, and that made a lot of sense to me.
09:29 Yeah, and that’s all about culture.
Wendy
Host 09:31 That’s the culture piece. Yeah, right there.
Scott
Host 09:33 How you’re going to move, you know workforce, how you’re going to move yourself, how you’re going to inspire people, you know, and all of those things too, and you know. And so Mike and I spent so much time with Mike and with Eric and Beth and we knew how they treated people, we knew how they navigated the workforce and so that with that evidence, just that showed up a long time ago. They just showed up a long time ago. And then for me, like right now, like I don’t really have a lot to do, I mean I’ve got some small projects but it’s nothing faithartly can’t take, so I’m going to leave in March and Mike’s going to leave in.
Wendy
Host 10:12 December.
Scott
Host 10:14 And we’ll see what’s next.
Wendy
Host 10:17 Yeah. So first of all, thanks for sharing that, because you know that is. That’s a big deal, right? You know what I mean. That was just a part of who you were for a very long time and that’s never going to go away completely right In your soul. But how you handle that makes a huge difference and it ties back to you walking your talk, the things that while you’re the CEO at McGohan Brabender and now you have the opportunity to continue to walk that talk, you know as you transition into this next chapter. So what does this next chapter look like for you?
Scott
Host 10:58 I don’t know. You know, I think with you know my wife Lori, you know, I told her me doing nothing doesn’t end well for humanity, for anybody, and if there’s something she wants, to do then she followed me for basically, you know, I would say almost a third of my life and I’ll follow her for the last third.
11:25 So if you want to do something there, then let me know. Outside of ballroom dancing, I’m not really into that. And then you know the book and I love to speak and I’m being asked to do that a lot and I really enjoy that. And then I’m kicking up a new project with my son, taylor, and he’s on here and and then maybe it’s really around my deep passion for mental health and substance abuse. So how do you wake? How do you maybe open up people’s eyes and minds and hearts and voices to be able to talk about anxiety, depression, substance abuse, financial fear, you know domestic violence. How do you make that suicide? I mean, there’s big, huge rocks that a lot of times people in the workforce just sit in silence and then. So how do you maybe give permission to people to talk about that and bring life to that in a really beautiful way? And Taylor’s a tremendous filmmaker and a storyteller. I’ve got some good ideas and so I’m working with Hyperquake again, Wendy, so Taylor and I are going down.
12:45 Yeah we’re going to go down there and see if we can build this, build this model, and you know, I don’t, I don’t know, you know, actually you know. So my faith’s really important to me and I know I’m talking a mile, a minute, but I kind of ask God like just show me what’s next. And then I don’t hear anything, like physically like hear, hear, like, but I, but I, what I felt was get quiet and I’ll tell you, and I was like, ooh, I don’t think I want to do that right now.
Wendy
Host 13:21 Well, because it’s not easy and I think we talked about this last episode right, be getting quiet easy. And sometimes we’re not quiet because we’re afraid of as to what might come up during that time. Well, that’s exciting and it’s very important work. You know that’s near and dear to my heart too, and so thank you for you know at least stepping into it. So it’ll be interesting to see what comes of it. But I’m interested in going back to this for now.
13:48 Oh, culture is an inside job. So maybe for I know in the very beginning, when we started this podcast, you shared a little bit, you know we entered a little bit about you working on this book. But now that it’s out, maybe take the listeners back to where did? Where did it come from? And obviously it’s called culture is an inside job, which is the name of our podcast, and how does it really tie into who? You are Right, it’s part of, obviously part of your story and then also what we’re talking about in this podcast. So where did it come from? And maybe a little bit about that story.
Scott
Host 14:31 Yeah, and I was having breakfast with Mike Matill probably three or four times done it. You know UD hanging out just drinking coffee and he just kind of laughed one day and said you should write a book and I’m like that’s impossible, that’s just not going to happen. And then it just became to kind of like come alive and then so like organizational culture, in my opinion, starts with individual culture and I think there’s so many organizations that and I’m not picking on Google or you know that want ballchairs and ping pong tables and you know fun places to work. But you know we live in a capitalistic society and like we still have to produce revenue, we still have to produce results and we still have to. You know, at the end, you know profit’s not a bad thing, you know profit’s a good thing and allows us to do.
15:33 You know pay raises and make a difference in our communities and all those beautiful things. But I watched a lot of organizations that they wanted somebody else’s culture, Like, hey, I want your culture, you guys have a wonderful culture. And then my dad said years ago he was. I didn’t know I had a culture until someone told me I did, which is really noble. In other words, he just did it from his heart, which is pretty authentic.
Wendy
Host 16:03 Well, and the crazy thing is, everybody’s got a culture, just matter what kind of culture. Yeah, 100%. Your dad was leading from his heart, yeah.
Scott
Host 16:15 And it was so.
16:16 You know what he did, maybe in eight lead we had to do intentionally and then kind of moving through that, and then my own brokenness in my life brought me to a really, really lonely place and today, like I love the bottom the bottom is a beautiful place as long as I can, as you know, you’re there.
16:36 So the book’s probably a lot like restoring yourself from the inside out, about maybe going back to that little boy and little girl when you felt like you had a relationship with yourself, when you were comfortable and society didn’t tell you you weren’t big enough, tall enough, smart enough, pretty enough, and that little boy, little girls inside of each of us, and we’re allowed to go back and meet that that little person again and say what was it about that person, that that made you happy, that made you smile? And then, when you find that person again and maybe you put earmuffs on and stop listening to society or other people find a relationship with yourself, hopefully, find a relationship spiritually, find a relationship with yourself physically too, mentally, and then spiritually, and I just think the sky is the limit, I just think everything is just like open and then massive self-awareness and emotional and to all the things that you and Karen talk about all the time. When you can take those tools and you can navigate life in a pretty amazing way.
18:04 Yeah, otherwise everything looks like a nail and all you got in your pocket is a hammer, and that just ends badly.
Wendy
Host 18:11 Right, that’s what I was just thinking when you were talking. It’s that’s what all of those things are our tools that we get to put in our toolbox and we get to choose which ones that we want to pull out. So the more that we can learn about all of those different types of tools, especially around emotional intelligence, the more opportunity we have to develop and grow and then, therefore, when we’ve done that for ourselves, we can do that for other people.
Scott
Host 18:39 That’s the big thing for me too, and walking through the book was the fact that like I had a lot of resentment in my life, so I had a bunch of it and I really felt like I was a really good person and my humanity was just coming at me. Looking back, I wasn’t a really good person, I was just a scared little person with no tools and so like learning to navigate through conflict, learning how to move through resentment in a healthy way maybe even teaching other people like how do you move through those so your life gets freer?
19:21 You don’t wake up in the morning with massive conflict in your heart, in your mind. I spent most of my life a pretty angry person, but man, I’m asked a pretty like optimistic, smiley face and I don’t know. It was a lot of fun to write. It was a lot of fun to put together.
Wendy
Host 19:46 Would you? I’m assuming you would call that. It’s the other side. It’s like that other side of the spectrum where you were saying that, well, really, probably when you were describing earlier, kind of going inside and finding that child and really like who you really are at your core until life tells us that we can’t show up in that way, right. But what I know you use the word destructive heroes and so it sounds like what you’re describing that’s who you became was a destructive hero, is that?
Scott
Host 20:23 true, oh yeah yep, and every organization has one. I mean, it is normally a very high performer, a someone that manages a large part of the revenue. Normally they’re in sales, or a founder’s kit, or a relative of a founder or a leader, basically an untouchable and you know, as organizations, what we allow in an organization we actually encourage so that’s hard to hear because here’s what I thought self-worth, equal performance plus the opinions of others. So the more I worked, the more stuff.
21:11 I had, you know, houses, cars, boat like stuff. I was trying to fill my this hole in my soul with things that didn’t work and then sadly, your opinion of me meant more than my own opinion of myself.
21:27 So I was just on a race for affirmation in a really unhealthy way. And not only that, but I was pretty good at sales too. And sales can be really wonky because we a lot of us think in order to be really good at sales, we have to adapt to different relationships and different people. And sometimes we do. But if you’re not careful you’ll turn into a chameleon. And you’ll actually make money being a chameleon, but at the end you’ll lose yourself. You won’t even know who in the heck you are and that’s a really sad place to end up.
Wendy
Host 22:13 Right, Scott, I know there’s a particular story that you have, that like the moment in time where you’re like, okay, this is either going to go one way or another. Do you mind sharing that story with our listeners?
Scott
Host 22:33 Oh, is that the Victoria story?
Wendy
Host 22:35 Yeah.
Scott
Host 22:35 Yeah yeah, it’s a great story. I talked to her the other day too. She’s awesome.
Wendy
Host 22:42 Victoria, if you ever listen to her podcast. I miss you and love you, yeah she’s incredible.
Scott
Host 22:47 So 25 years ago she walked in my office and said there’s values painted on the wall. You don’t exhibit one of them and I have my own set of values and you torque them every day. Today’s my last day.
Wendy
Host 23:02 That just gave me chills.
Scott
Host 23:03 Yeah, and then you know, I like door, like who else heard that? So that’s all ego. Did anybody else hear that? And then I asked her I’m like hey, like if can we talk about this tomorrow? She said, you know, I’ll think about it maybe. And then she came in the next day. We talked for a while. Obviously I said look, I know how to sell and how to produce.
23:28 I know how to like do this, but what I don’t know how to do is maybe to encourage and inspire and grow people. So if I hired a coach and I gave you access to that coach, would you give me a chance and we both agreed, we’d ask each other three questions every day Am.
Wendy
Host 23:45 I okay, are you okay Are?
Scott
Host 23:46 we okay. And then it started from there and it just evolved into, I know, taking some courses at Aileron, leaning into UD entrepreneurship leadership reading. I had no faith back then, like I did. I found Southbrook right On the heels of that. I thought God was a big cop in the sky handing me a speeding ticket every day and just judging me. I had no idea he wanted a relationship but be a friend, and it was a really cool journey. It was a lot of work too. Now I don’t want our listeners to think that, like I had this big bright light on top of me and I had this awakening I mean, probably 10 years ago I thought that. But honestly, man, I was just trying to get my butt out of trouble. That’s like. So my motive, like in the very beginning, it wasn’t her, it wasn’t noble, I was in trouble and I was good at getting out of trouble. Yeah.
Wendy
Host 24:52 I love you all about that.
Scott
Host 24:55 In all fairness like it got me to the place where I am today, which is like and I love that, but I mean our ego it can do a lot of things, a lot of good things for us. Like, my ego actually brought me to where I am right now, but my ego got me there Too. Does that make sense, Right? Yeah, there’s two sides to that.
Wendy
Host 25:19 Yeah, so Victoria stayed 25 years.
Scott
Host 25:22 Yeah, and I got to wheel her out to her car on the Victory car in her last day of work at MD, which was really cool. Yeah, she is an amazing human being.
Wendy
Host 25:33 that’s for sure, yeah, so I was, because I was just curious too about as you think about, because you know, I love again, I love your honesty, but we don’t know what we don’t know. So, just like you said, okay, so 10 years ago I thought this, but really well, again now you’re how much further in your life and you’ve grown and developed even more. But as you think about your progress, like, how would you, over those years, describe the progress that you’ve seen within yourself, that you’ve made along the way? Right, it’s just, yes, there was a moment in time that something happened. We’ve talked about that, that’s that learning circle, right, a kairos moment, as we call it, a moment in time that something made your happen and then you made a decision to do something with it. However, it was a journey. So, as you think about the progress that you’ve really made along the way, how would you describe that? How would you describe that both from a thought, maybe even from a thoughts and emotions standpoint?
Scott
Host 26:44 Yeah, I can remember, you know, I can remember walking into a recovery room at Southbrook Church and I said my name’s Scott and my soul is cooked so and I’ve gone there every Monday night for 15 years. So you know, in those rooms I learned a lot about how do I heal from resentment, how do I heal emotionally, spiritually. But then every Monday night I get to watch myself walk in that room you know somebody that’s never been in that room for the first time and I get to watch them, kind of either accept it or run from it. And sometimes I can look at somebody and they’re a hot mess and I can say there, by the grace of God, there go I, if I don’t keep coming back. So I learned so much by living in that world and I love that world. Does that make sense, I think? Without that I honestly think I would give myself way too much credit.
Wendy
Host 28:11 Yeah, I mean, I just think that’s a part of what you know you need to stay grounded. Yeah, I mean, like all kinds of journey, yep.
Scott
Host 28:22 And then I have, like, some real truth-tellers in there too. I mean, then they’re honest and they’ll kick me right in the teeth and then I have to repair that and I have to restore that and kind of like move on. But yeah, that’s been probably the greatest gift Are those rooms on Monday night?
Wendy
Host 28:47 Mm-hmm, yep, it keeps you on the path that you feel that you’re called to walk on. That allows you to show up in the way that you truly want to, and you’re truly called to. All right, yep. So I know that we’re going to be having more conversations about your book and diving deeper into that, but I think, maybe, as we wrap up in this particular episode, what do you hope for? What is your heart hope for, like which or why, behind writing this book, and what do you hope for for others as they read it?
Scott
Host 29:30 Oh, that’s a great question, you know, I think, for I think there’s a lot of people just like me. You’re out there, you’re out there and they’re trying to fill their life with stuff and things and could be clothes and cart like things and they’re just really tired and they’re super lonely. I wrote a poem where it’s called Never Alone, always Lonely, and I think society looks at people that are maybe lost and they look at them and maybe in some sort of fashion, like you know.
30:17 You know with their eyes they’ll look at the clothes that they wear, or how they look or what they drive, and say, well, of course they’re not doing well.
30:25 But there’s a lot of people that put on makeup and nice clothes that are just a freaking hot mess, I mean, and I think they’re more dangerous than any human being is the ones that are trying to really fake it. But what I love about Monday nights is I get to watch. I get to watch moms and dads restore their relationships with their kids. I get to watch people that are spiritually and financially bankrupt come alive. I get to watch people do beautiful things and serving others. I get to watch humanity at its very best. And if maybe one of those stories in that book or maybe maybe one of those chapters just gives somebody the permission to just say I don’t want to be like this anymore and I’ve got some choices to make, and if any of those nuggets can help them, then I can look back and say that would be kind of that would be kind of cool to watch, kind of kind of cool to see. So that’s what I hope for it.
Wendy
Host 31:43 I love that. That’s beautiful, scott. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, so it sounds like you know. This book is just for anyone who wants to, and is willing to, have that deeper level of self-awareness and really understand that they have a choice in how they show up, to give them the opportunity to inspire people in the way they truly want to.
Scott
Host 32:07 Wow, I appreciate it, thanks for asking me about it too. Yeah, absolutely.
Wendy
Host 32:13 So we’ll dive deeper into this in future episodes, but for now, where can people find your book? Amazon?
Scott
Host 32:21 So Amazon, amazon, so it’s on. You know, I was looking. I got a call the other day and someone said you know it’s, it’s sold in France and Italy. Ooh, Australia. That’s kind of cool.
Wendy
Host 32:34 That is cool. Yeah, I’m speaking today in.
Scott
Host 32:37 Virginia and the guy’s like. You know, we have a really good culture and I’m not really sure we need like, and I’m like oh no, no, no, no, no, no. This is, this is more about your people than it is. Oh yeah, we need a lot of that.
Wendy
Host 32:53 Yeah, you got to help decipher the difference. Yeah.
Scott
Host 32:55 So that’ll be that’s. That’s kind of cool, so, but yeah, amazon.com Awesome.
Wendy
Host 33:01 Well, it was. It was fun interviewing you today and just finding out more about your journey and your book and go out and get Scott McGohan’s book Culture is an Inside Job and with that we will see you next time. Thanks.
